let everyone start immediately at 120(120) for countries created in the first 2 days of the reset

that would make the first couple days a lot less boring

it also creates a little advantage to those logging on at the exact start of the server which imho would be a bad thing.

perhaps alliance countries that start right at the beginning get 120 turns, none saved. countries logging in later still start with 120 but get rounded up in saved turns instead. everyone would have the opportunity to get all the turns, provided that they make a country within 40 hours (amount of time to reach 120(120)) of the set starting.

any country created after that point would just get 120(120).

that would help make restarts a little more interesting as well, if something like the 1/10 restarts does not get implemented.

I actually like this idea a lot. Starting at 120(0) sounds good to me. It would certainly be an interesting experiment... I'd be interested to see how the market is altered with people being able to immediately place goods on the market. It would also be really nice for restarts.

makes sense, starting at 0 saved would make more sense so that people starting later would just get the 120 plus saved, so everyone got same turns still

still gives a kickstart to the set though, which is the idea

might not be a bad idea ;)

We would get extra turns basically in the whole duration of the reset.

A netgaining AND warmonger change!

120(0) I agree. Another great idea llaar!

(edit: just removed a kind of useless suggestion about having the set start instantly and more turns on hand, part of my dumb delay for no reason posts)

you could have the first 24 hours of each set where everyone gets X turns to start with but doesnt gain turns

and protection lasts for that many turns +1

and make sets start immediately when old ones finish if they dont already (i assume its 24 hours?)

that way anyone can play as soon as they like, and make protection a bit longer without making the game in effect start later

because someone logging in at 17 hours shouldnt be disadvantaged compared to 18, bonus turns should be pro rata'd based on when you login, as at the beginning 6 turns matters but 6 turns at the end is only about .15% and people who want to logon at the end can gradually move their play time if they want anyway

not that i really like bonus turns

up to protection turns +1 days turns on hand in my opinion, with extra bonus stored turns up to perhaps 2 days turns to make it so you only have to play with 72 hours of the set starting

could use a similar formula for restarts to let them come out of protection immediately then have turns from when they were killed perhaps

just dont want to make a situation where dying or self deleting is beneficial

ie if you could send FA's to restarts to get them in range you could self delete over and over to use the 20 free turns after protection to finish targets, dont want to make things too exploitable

I say just keep it simple. Created a country and get 120(0). Then for every tick after the start date you get a stored turn.

posted to wrong post

what i originally said though enshula,

is that you only start off with more turns, the 120 on hand, for countries created in the first 2 days of the set, and starting time+20 minutes, you get your first turn. so if you create a country 40 minutes into set, you get 120(2) for example.

after that (2 days or so), restarts would start off as they do now, with only 50 turns

or the amount they start off with, would decrease by 1 per 20 minutes, after the first 2 days, until you only started with 50. which is how it is now

So you are saying penalize late starters?

yeah.... it would be more beneficial to promote late starters. i personally have issues with starting late in the set. if the set is a week in and i havent created a country im probably not going to. there is a 2 day window for a person to start the set or they will be behind. its harsh

what timeframe should there be?

you get all the turns anyone in the set has gotten...

until the first kill on the server happens?

so if the first kill happens at day 6, you can start with 6 days worth of turns (plus the 120 everyone starts with)

after that point of first kill people start only getting 50 turns?

i do agree that 2 day window is harsh

that is how it has always been... this thread is promoting the idea of starting it the way its been, just adding 120 turns on top of that, so that the first couple days of the set are much faster on game play and give a kickstart to the set

how long to keep giving more turns to new players until they only get 50 or something.. thats another discussion i do believe, one i'm not sure yet, what the right approach would be. it is something that should change for a new player....

maybe new accounts get all the turns? (still a problem with people dying and instead of restarting, just creating a new account to get more turns) but then whats the benefit of starting early compared to a week in? should both really get the same turns?

so...

kick start a set with 120(0) turns

and... devise a way for it to still be fun for a player to start midset ? somehow?

ok... its obvious i am loving the 120 turns start idea. what if and this is just a what if

120(0)[banked turns]

banked turns would be turns given that you start late or even turn bonuses. they would come SIGNIFICANTLY slower than stored turns. maybe 1 turn every hour. and if you reach 120(120) you start losing banked turns

(edit: wasnt too bad, just a little vagueness to fix)

as long as the turns arnt more out of protection than you would have got since the last time you played or your country died its ok since you could never get free extra attacks but thats not really neccessary to add in

{{this bit is also about restarts}}

that said their is a better solution, make protection longer as the set goes on

so then countries can get more starting turns as the set goes on without the risk that its better to die than keep playing

say at halfway in the set, people might be 10m nw

normally a restart can make perhaps 80k nw i forget, if we let restarts play an extra 100 odd turns in protection perhaps they could be about 250k or 300k instead, and a lot more useful in wars

plus any new players that join late can grow a lot more before being farmed

id consider making it allowed to sell on market in the second protection period so more starts are viable

and make it so that second protection doesnt start until at least long enough in the set it wouldnt be abusable with 0 defence starts or whatever

(edit: yay this post wasnt stupid)

one thing to keep in mind is that at some point it becomes efficient to FA someone and let them grab, which they cant do if they are stuck in protection

but if they are only in protection basically for the free/starting turns then they can grab

the middle ground is to make an opt out additional protection that people are put in automatically later in the reset

that way people in wars can leave it and hit if they want to

I think increasing the starting turns is the right idea. 120(120) would be the maximum benefit you could gain, regardless of starting time in sets.

If you have a look at the other thread talking about restarts and offering a "Salvage phase" - this could be the balance that would even that out. Players can either take the restart with 120(120) or the "Salvaged" Country with whatever %land/%NW. That would give everyone an advantage, not just landfat NW fat countries or warring countries.

So to sum it up. Joining early gives you 120(0) turns. You would then bank "earlybird turns (1 every hour) until the server would have handed out 120 turns normally (IE 120 x 20min = 40 Hrs.) In that time, the earliest starters will get a MAX 40 turn bonus. That means people arent really being penalised for starting late, they are just 40 turns behind. Then, no matter how far you are in the set, you will only start with the maximum - 120(120). If the restart idea comes into play, to even it out, they would only recieve the traditional 50 turns, and most of that would be on salvaging.

That should balance both ideas pros and cons.

Why should people ever start with 50 turns llaar? Why not just start everyone with 120(+), regardless of when they start? I think azmodii has written it best, about starting at 120 and then the later you are the more turns you accumulate until after 40 hours you have 120(120) and that is the cap for starting.

i'm agreement with detmer, would make people more likely to start countries late in the set if they get more turns to start with.

i think turns should just accumulate like normal though (as opposed to earlybird turns), probably easier on the coders and it still gives everyone that starts in the first ~2 days/40 hours the same amount of turns and after just start with the max after 2 days amount.

just setting start turn to 120, wouldnt be hard for coding

and then, the only way to not get same amount of turns would be to start later than 40 hours into the set

country creation starts day before set, so thats a full 64 hours, until a new player would start not having as many turns as everyone else

all new players would get 120(120) after 40 hours into the set though, which gives them a much better start than the 50 does. (240 turns is 80 hours worth of turns)

ok, so it sounds like you're saying the same thing as everyone else and I must have misinterpreted what you meant

nope, i modified the starting with 50, to agree with you and others

definitely a discussion here and i'm modifying my view based on the good advice you guys are putting forth as well ;)

that last post i made i think is the best summary of the ideas here so far though!

I think i would lean towards one day's turns (72 for alliance) just to keep it simple, plus to allow ~48 hours of not playing from the start before you start losing turns....

according to that... 48 hours is 144 turns, so then you could start the set with 96 turns.

go for 120, and make it 40 hours though ;)

any sorta kickstart to the set would be nice though, especially if over 100, then commie indy could dump military 1 minute into set... gets the set started faster

Yeah, I think the best starting values would be 99,100 or 120. 96 would also be workable, once you are there you might as well go 99 or 100

what's wrong with 72? it's a nice number :)

benefit of over 100 = OOP immediately, and indies can put stuff to market

starts off the set's market immediately

72 = 9 hours 20 minutes until OOP after set start

*watches a new breed of grabbers that focues on grabbing people OOP, and camps until they have a strong enough defense*

people have always been grabbed OOP

cause of the 40 jet SS test, you can see who has bought defense and who hasn't

(edited because of my stupidity)

starting turns should be enough to either almost put people out of protection and everyone gets the same amount for 24 hours with no more turns until the second day when the set reallly starts

or everyone should get enough turns immediately to get out of protection, call it either 100 or 101 as soon as the server starts

could even combine the 2 and allow public market sales on the last turns to speed up the market, either normal delay, or hitting as soon as the set really starts, or real set start plus normal delay, i dont feel its really neccessary though (possibly go into debt on turns)

the first option makes the game start faster while keeping things even between those who play at 1am server time and 11pm server time and giving people something to do when the games not really running if they want to

so infinite turns while under protection?
hmmmm

would make for some REALLY interesting fight if two evenly matched alliances go to war and all the top breakers are dead and to the point where restarts can hit OOP with just one FA package.

get to turn 99, store 400 turns, get out, get FAed. BAM

(edit: not too dumb :)

bonus turns for new accounts or late starting accounts, and reclaimed resources from dead countries for restarts

the bonuses for new or late starting accounts prevents them from doing attacks/special attacks for the time of an extended protection

give an option to play as a restart,that makes it simple to prevent the 2 changes compounding eachother to an excess

allow opt out where people want to attack straight out of protection but never allow that with turns to attack immediately on creation, the simple option would be to allow people to play as a restart though they would get no bonuses since their is no dead country

That system encourages people to start late after tech has started hitting the market. Can't let people go beyond the normally storeable amount of turns.

no forgotten, you should always only have a max of 120(120) after you come out of protection

and you should never start with so many turns that you can come out of protection and hit immediately

(edit: dumb dumb section here, i apologise please ignore, would allow infinite suiciding)
the only exception is early set when it should be made so that someone who create at the start and do nothing, and someone who create 3 days late are equal

detmer everyone would have the same choice, and theres no other solution to not penalising peple who start late

right now you can:
0 hours 50(0) +50
18 hours 120(8) +78
36 hours 120(84) +78
48 hours 123(120) +39

so thats 48 hours after turns start you can play and buy tech
changing it to 72 or 96 hours necessarily allows people to buy tech on the market 1 or 2 days later

the only way to stop that is to ban people selling on private for 1 to 2 days longr, or ban the late starters buying on private for 1 to 2 days longer

since the specific concern is tech you could ban purchasing tech for 1 to 2 days after the set though if people had more than 243 total turns unplayed if you needed to

i personally dont think its a huge concern though, and i already start late after tech has hit the market

Why should we encourage people to start late? This suggestion still gives about two days of leeway... why is it so important to you that people start late?

actually it might be if you join within 25 hours you get the up to 50 but lose out on up to 8.33 bonus turns? but you can sign up at either -24 or -48?
or do bonus turns only come after the first logout or after first 24 hours or something

i was being stupid about wanting people to start late

sorry all for the ranting and particularly to detmer who pointed it out to me and i didnt even realise what i was advocating

anyone who wants to play every day should be able to creat a country within a few days, then if they have created it they should be able to play turns within 80 hours since thats how often we have to play at minimum anyway

*head in hand picture*

Ok so heres my proposal, with a few extras thrown in.

All new players recieve 120(0) turns at the start. That gets products on the market early in the set. Improves gameplay, makes it more competitive.

Now the hard part. The mechanics behind game length in relation to turns are I guess pretty ground in place. Say the game length is 4560 turns. The mechanics behind it, logic, would specify that no individual country could take more than 4560 turns + 50 turns at the beginning. That means, turn handouts (as a variable) at the 1 second mark of the server live time after reset = 50 * 20 mins = 1000. That makes the total turns (Hypothetical) 5560.

So theres the problem I see with implimentation.

The solution? Increase the turns at the start of the set to 120(0). Have it stack until 120(120) and then stop. Thats the max benefit any person can get. That means anyone who joins before 80hrs into the set recieves the bonus, and anyone after that point loses the stacking turns.

IE:
Country A joins 79:40 (79 Hours & 40 Mins) - They recieve 120(119)
Country B joins 80:40 - They recieve 120(120).

Country A has recieved 242 Turns in total. Country B has recieved 240 turns in total.

That means that the logic can be programmed relatively easy, as no country can take more turns than the server can hand out. No new variables need to be made, and the benefit is even on both sides.

Pre-80hrs get the market advantage, and get out of protection early, meaning they can stock max turns. Other pre-80's will potentially hit the stackers with early LG's. Post-80hrs will not be too far behind, unless its a considerable amount of time, meaning its not unfair on them either IE balancing, and late starters just have to cope with the fact that they have missed out.

Makes it easy to understand. Easy to impliment & doesnt shake up the framework ie balancing :D

(edit: sorry removed the stupid stuff)



I dont think anyone proposed anything like 1000 extra turns over a reset. Unless your talking about a problem with the game having a differant amount of turns for everyone?

But in the past we have had long sets and short sets varying by perhaps a couple of weeks, sometimes the game was 3 months, sometimes 2 months, turns used to be every 40 minutes and so on.

So i assume you think somehow someone would get extra turns by starting late compared to someone who started on time?

The only way i can see that making sense is if your talking about someone that gets kill a lot and restarts quickly and we give the current 50 or more free turns to each new country.

Apart from that the rest of your post is okish except people cant have bonus turns after coming out of protection since they could come oop, attack, delete and repeat. Too big an exploit.

Even stored turns are a big risk since you could have double turns the next day to hit with. Then delete restart make a new country and have double turns again the next day.

Cycle would actually be up to 40 hours if you had 120 stored turns which is a lot of time of double attacking.

Thats why we need the complicated stuff if were going to either make new players or restarts a bit better mid set.

As to the design goal of speeding up the start of the game that has to either be capped at 100 turns or whatever protection is. Or you can give extra bonus turns only before anyone is able to attack or use the market. But there is really no need.

Ok. When you first start. First second into the game. You have 50 turns. Turns get handed out every 20 mins. Say the set runs for 60 mins theoretically.

50 * 20 = 1000
Game time = 60 (1 turn per 20 mins)
Total turns playable = 53
Total turns elapsed = 53 * 20 = 1060

Even if a country starts with 53 turns - total still = 1060 no matter how it plays out.

See the shift? a perfect 60 = game time

There are 3 turns in the duration of the set.
First 20 mins = free (120). After that free (60), after that (0)
If country A starts at 120(120) in first 20 mins, Country B starts with 120(60) after 2nd 20 mins, and Country C starts last 20 mins with 120(0).

Ignore the time as its irrelevant.

Country A = 120(120) + 3 = 243 Turns playable
Country B = 120(60) + 2 = 182 Turns playable
Country C = 120(0) + 1 = 121 Turns playable

That means maximum playable turns = 243.
120(120) = 240 = 240 * 20 = 4800
3 * 20 = 60
Total = 4860.

BUT

Country B = 120(60) + 2 = 182 * 20 = 3640
Country C = 120(0) + 1 = 121 * 20 = 2420

That means Country A effectively has ghost turns, not divisible by gametime.



Now look at what I said.

Each turn handed out HAS to be handed out by the server. Hypothetical again, say 20 mins = 60 turns.

Country A starts first 20
Country B Second 20
Country C Third 20

Country A max = 120(0) + (60 + 60 = 120) = 240
Country B max = 120(60) = 180 + (60) = 240
Country C max = 120(120) = 240

Now extend the set by another 60 mins & add three more countries, but the extra turns stop ticking at 60min mark.
Still keep the 60 per 20 mins.

Country A max = 120(0) + (60 + 60 = 120) = 240 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 420
Country B max = 120(60) = 180 + (60) = 240 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 420
Country C max = 120(120) = 240 + 60 + 60 + 60 = 420
Country D max = 120(120) = 240 + 60 +60 = 380
Country E Max = 120(120) = 240 + 60 = 320
Country F max = 120(120) = 240

0.333333333333333 = turns per min

That means max 420 = 420 * 0.333333333333333 = 140 mins
Country C = 120(120)
= 180 turns elapsed
= 420 * 0.333333333333333 = 140 mins

The maths is slightly out. But thats my lazy fault.


Country C now has same and no ghost turns exist.

All I'm saying is that the bonus must remain 120(120) for all early starters during the duration of the 120 turns elapsing, and that decreasing turns as turns elapse is a mathematical nightmare.

At least I think thats right lol

If people aren't following the game and already knowing when the round starts we can't assume that when the round starts will have any impact. All people starting/coming back are assumed to join at some random time. If we start at 0(0) then there is the greatest probability they will join sometime when the round has started but they will not have lost any turns. If it is a new player they really have no conception of starting late and its adverse effects, so that won't hinder them unless their gameplay suffers as a result. As a new player their gameplay will probably suffer as it is. So that means catering to current players by letting them play more, sooner, or catering to the possibility of a vet randomly showing up in a four day period out of two months vs a two day period out of two months.

I'd rather cater to the people who actually play.

(edit: i was being stupid)

im really not following

the way it works currently is

78*60=4680
24hourloginturns*days=turns
if you want you can do 18 hour logins and get
80*60=4800

bonus turns would be given
a) to make it so everyone starts the game out of protection or close to out of protection, at max these would be the time of protection +1, so to get 200 even protection would need to last for 200 turns if for some reason people wanted to do that
b) to make it so restarts or new players starting late wouldnt be so far behind, but if these turns are taken then countries must stay in protection for the duration

under either method turns would be given once not 20 times, not 50 times, not adding up to 1000

i get the impression you may be seeing 120 turns on hand as a cap when it doesnt have to be, but giving them as stored turns allows us to set new players with a normal amount of turns to play each day rather than distorting their impression of gameplay

i have no idea why you would ever get an extra 1000 turns

thinking just about the last part of your post though that i think i understand:

(sorry this part was stupid about delaying play)

i just realised one major problem i forgot, any country made after the game started would have to have at most turns equal to protection

the time you can sign up but not play needs to stay in, since otherwise turns given would need to be at most equal to protection

or protection lengths would need to vary depending on when you signed up

sorry i did realise all that stuff before and just went ranting, really do feel silly

also finally realise what detmer meant about rewarding delaying play for no reason, sorry detmer and particularly azmodil who i caused to write a lot of stuff on a topic i should never have been ranting about

bonus turns should only ever be a max of protection, which can be higher if longer opt out in some way protections are added but must still never allow free attack turns

you guys are boggling my mind -- we were just talking about giving like X(0) rather than 0(0) where X = 72 OR 96 OR 100 OR 101 OR 120 depending on the proposal? ie we'd only have X more turns in the set anyway heh

enshula is on the mark i think:

Normal turns in the set:
4320
Normal turns + one 3 hour bonus per day
4500
Normal turns + one 6 hour bonus per day
4680
Normal turns + obsessive logging in every 18 hours
4800

so this would merely add a further X to that total, which wouldn't be a bad idea

This is exactly what I am suggesting. I am not entirely sure what anyone else wants anymore.

sorry again detmer i went crazy