Mar 19 08:53:47 <quaxbi> if he's looking for martian for what I think he is... how much justification is required for a tag to kill when someone else is already killing?
Mar 19 08:54:11 <[Evo]Tellarion> numbers?
Mar 19 08:54:27 <quaxbi> #105 is basically the trouble maker
Mar 19 08:54:57 <quaxbi> farmed qzjulsex and grabbed my tagmate
Mar 19 08:56:50 <[Evo]Tellarion> hmm
Mar 19 08:56:55 <[Evo]Tellarion> what's your tag?
Mar 19 08:57:05 <quaxbi> fluffsex (I didn't make it)
Mar 19 08:57:15 <[Evo]Tellarion> lol
Mar 19 08:57:42 <quaxbi> I did get #1 with RED STORM >.>
Mar 19 08:57:44 <[Evo]Tellarion> If qzjulsex declares war on them
Mar 19 08:57:51 <quaxbi> it would just be the one country
Mar 19 08:57:57 <[Evo]Tellarion> I would advise against it..
Mar 19 08:57:59 <[Evo]Tellarion> well
Mar 19 08:58:00 <[Evo]Tellarion> depends
Mar 19 08:58:04 <[Evo]Tellarion> hmm
Mar 19 08:58:10 <[Evo]Tellarion> have they declared war yet?
Mar 19 08:58:16 <[Evo]Tellarion> if your tag kills a single person
Mar 19 08:58:20 <[Evo]Tellarion> and it stays at that
Mar 19 08:58:26 <[Evo]Tellarion> i'd say it's fine probably
Mar 19 08:58:47 <[Evo]Tellarion> If someone fluffs up and hits a bunch of people and causes some fluff to go down
Mar 19 08:58:54 <[Evo]Tellarion> that's not really what we're looking to stop
Mar 19 08:58:59 <quaxbi> no, but I was thinking if the other tag is killing them before we get the retal it would be justified in place of the retal
Mar 19 08:59:09 <[Evo]Tellarion> in place of?
Mar 19 08:59:20 <quaxbi> kinda hard to take a retal when something is 200 in DR
Mar 19 08:59:23 <[Evo]Tellarion> so if they don't declare, what would you do?
Mar 19 08:59:26 <[Evo]Tellarion> yeah that's true
Mar 19 08:59:32 <[Evo]Tellarion> i'd suggest just writing it off
Mar 19 08:59:39 <[Evo]Tellarion> how does it help you to kill him in that case?
Mar 19 09:00:03 <quaxbi> satisfaction?
Mar 19 09:00:31 <[Evo]Tellarion> then i'd suggest you don't do it
Mar 19 09:02:10 <quaxbi> so don't hit if the situation doesn't change
Mar 19 09:02:38 <[Evo]Tellarion> if they declare war and go to town, and you can't get your land back
Mar 19 09:02:42 <[Evo]Tellarion> stay out imo
Mar 19 09:03:01 <quaxbi> I can guarantee only the one country will be killed
Mar 19 09:04:36 <[Evo]Tellarion> if it's just about the satisfaction of payback, don't do it
Mar 19 09:07:19 <quaxbi> back in the BknArrow days we did try to keep it in tag, but we did kill for 2 grabs. I'll stay out if he doesn't touch my tag before death :)
Mar 19 09:08:27 <quaxbi> note I'm not speaking for TSO there, but what was my personal tag with some handpicked people which we tried to set up duels that followed the spirit of the server

basically quit saying you told me not to retaliate against a quad tap

y'all mods need my help as someone who's played solo servers for the last couple years and knows therefore exactly what "coordination" means. turn this server over to me, i'll give clear rules and fair enforcement. yea you're not interested in the offer i know but seriously.

lol go home you're drunk.

in a mod role I'd trust blid more than most

No I mean it.

^ i second that

thanks hrfiesta :D

i personally would love for blid to be the active mod on this server.

if it isn't him, then me. and i think everybody is happier with him. either way, find somebody who plays this server first amongst any other, and have them be implicitly accepted as a free radical, so to speak, where nobody with any actual argument can with any impunity assault or derail their moderator status, ie convince them to benefit any one over any other.

blid works wonderfully, for this.

here, here?

I would rather have blid than you :P

You will be getting a full response tonight when I get home.

In short though, your reading comprehension skills are lacking.

Also when you get home are you making me mod?

I fail to see where you told me not to get involved in a situation where the standard retal policy based on what happened to my country is to kill the offender.

the thing for me is, even though blid is quite open about his distaste towards TSO, he still keeps a cool head and looks at elves' deletion and work through it in his defence. he's willing to discuss and on this board, he's put in a lot of constructive comments even though he doesn't play Team.

I only play TEAM server to bomb the hell out of the griefers the harass my clanmates

activeness, knowledge, communication skills...

+1 blid for mod. :)

+1 boltar for mod

elvesrus, your reading comprehension is indeed lacking. tella told you FOUR times not to do it. Why were you undeleted in my next question.


1. Tellarion> i'd suggest just writing it off
2. Tellarion> then i'd suggest you don't do it
3. Tellarion> stay out imo
4. Tellarion> if it's just about the satisfaction of payback, don't do it

Why were you undeleted? Also you were speaking for TSO and there was coordination and here's the proof.
1. <quaxbi> it would just be the one country
2. <quaxbi> I can guarantee only the one country will be killed

You guys were obviously coordinating to kill him and NO ONE got deleted!!!




+100 for blid as mod.

last I checked I got hit on march 20th

You're right, elves. I didn't tell you not to kill someone if you got quad-tapped. I'm also not claiming that is exactly what I told you, either. I have been saying repeatedly that I warned you specifically about these types of situations; ie when a country grabs several teams, and one of them starts killing it. I've referenced this many many many times already.

I was going to repaste what you posted above and apparently didn't read, but crest beat me to it. I did indeed tell you not to get involved if the only reason you would do so is to get the satisfaction of killing the country.

Mar 19 09:02:38 <Tellarion> if they declare war and go to town, and you can't get your land back
Mar 19 09:02:42 <Tellarion> stay out imo

Even though you were quad tapped, this is the relevant warning/advise I gave you prior to this event even happening. If you had followed my advice, the entire issue would have been avoided. Instead, you decided to get into it, and I can absolutely understand your reasoning as a player. Unfortunately, as I said multiple times, I warned you not to.

The reason you were undeleted is because we(mods/admins) have been wrestling with exactly how far we wish these new rules to go. There is some disagreement as to exactly how strict we should be in enforcing it, and this is a very new situation that shouldn't be directly compared to other servers, as that would be an apples and oranges comparison.

If I had followed your "advice" it could have stayed alive and possibly kept on grabbing me. Seemed like a no brainer to me.

If I see a country that has grabbed me multiple times being killed, I'm joining in if I see it. It's common sense in an attempt to prevent more damage.

I'm not going to say "mommy may I?" every time this comes up.

The ONE thing I was trying to get an answer too was at what point enough damage has been done to join in, because at some point a line has to be drawn. Martian said retals are acceptable, and last time I looked 3-4 grabs is generally kill for the retal.

Speaking as a player, I absolutely see your point. But, again, I said you shouldn't get involved in this type of situation.

Can there ever be 'enough damage' to allow people to join in? If you hadn't finished him off, there's a chance he could have logged in and stonewalled and he wouldn't have died. Yes, there's also a chance he could have continued to farm you. There are other untagged countries that may farm you as well, so maybe you should go kill them to?

I can't speak to exactly what martian had in mind when he said 'retals are acceptable', but I'd venture a guess as to say he meant grabs. I'll have to check with him though.

he also said if 1 team hits multiple teams, multiple teams can hit back

And that's where the sticking point is, isn't it? The rule was mostly aimed at wars. The 'appropriate response' angle is entirely subjective and political. What you think of as appropriate isn't necessarily what everyone else thinks.

hence why I was trying to find out a generalization of where the line might be, which didn't get anything except to stay out of a situation that involved 1 grab on a tagmate.

Mar 19 09:02:38 <Tellarion> if they declare war and go to town, and you can't get your land back
Mar 19 09:02:42 <Tellarion> stay out imo
Mar 19 09:02:38 <Tellarion> if they declare war and go to town, and you can't get your land back
Mar 19 09:02:42 <Tellarion> stay out imo
Mar 19 09:02:38 <Tellarion> if they declare war and go to town, and you can't get your land back
Mar 19 09:02:42 <Tellarion> stay out imo
Mar 19 09:02:38 <Tellarion> if they declare war and go to town, and you can't get your land back
Mar 19 09:02:42 <Tellarion> stay out imo

Congratulations, you have discovered one of the many areas that aren't explicitly stated in concrete terms for you to follow! I apologize for that, and we are working to fill in the gaps as quickly as we can. I guess if you didn't want to listen to my advice on what to do in such a situation, you shouldn't have asked me.

Regardless, I did tell you what I thought you should do in a very similar situation, and in terms that can be applied to the situation you found yourself in the following day.

Again, reading comprehension would work wonders for you.

And yes, I will chastise martian for not spelling out what he meant when using the word 'attack'.

but I did follow your advice on the topic discussed.

Mar 19 08:58:59 <quaxbi> no, but I was thinking if the other tag is killing them before we get the retal it would be justified in place of the retal
Mar 19 08:59:09 <[Evo]Tellarion> in place of?
Mar 19 08:59:20 <quaxbi> kinda hard to take a retal when something is 200 in DR
Mar 19 08:59:23 <[Evo]Tellarion> so if they don't declare, what would you do?
Mar 19 08:59:26 <[Evo]Tellarion> yeah that's true
Mar 19 08:59:32 <[Evo]Tellarion> i'd suggest just writing it off


No, you did not.

did I touch #105?

it's also a very different situation when grabbed 4 times over 1 on a tagmate.

Are you unable to distinguish between the specifics of that case and the generalities of cases like that? Yes, you started by asking about one specific case. I ended the conversation by giving general advice for cases like that. THAT advice is what you chose to ignore the following day.

So yes, you followed my specific advice for the situation involving #105 which began your query. You neglected to follow my advice on those types of situations in general.

Is that clear enough for you?

no, because 1 generally gets a retal while the other is a kill

question: had I contacted a mod first and been farmed by the country while waiting on a response, would you have returned the land to me and killed the country at the mod level?

if the answer is no there was no other way for me to have acted

These rules, though some are great to keep it 5v5, are ridiculous. It honestly just seems like you are coming up with rules on the spot.

"I got hit and I am in the TSO tag"
"Oh..er... you can't hit back *writes rule down* Yeah you can't hit back".

[quote poster=tellarion; 30742; 552167]Mar 19 08:58:59 <quaxbi> no, but I was thinking if the other tag is killing them before we get the retal it would be justified in place of the retal
Mar 19 08:59:09 <[Evo]Tellarion> in place of?
Mar 19 08:59:20 <quaxbi> kinda hard to take a retal when something is 200 in DR
Mar 19 08:59:23 <[Evo]Tellarion> so if they don't declare, what would you do?
Mar 19 08:59:26 <[Evo]Tellarion> yeah that's true
Mar 19 08:59:32 <[Evo]Tellarion> i'd suggest just writing it off


No, you did not. [/quote]

You are worse than a fluffing politician. He is asking for a clear answer, you 'suggesting' he should right it off is bullfluff. You need to say yes or no, not suggest or say 'imo'. You need to say exactly what you will get deleted for you

You really are quite a scum piece of fluff tella, why cant you say yes or no to what you will get deleted for?

That is why he is a moderator and you are a player... lmfao I wonder where I heard that before.

I must admit that I generally find iScode's posts antagonistic and in bad taste, but he hit the nail on the head with this one. Not only did you not really give him an answer, but he was deleted as if you had said he shouldn't do it, and then reinstated as if you had said he could, consequently losing him at least a day's worth of turns.

Dudes on a power trip. I refer back to my post:

Why can't I give a clear answer? Because

A) I didn't make the rule
B) I am one moderator
C) I am giving 'my' opinion on the new rule
D) Every situation is different and it's hard to tell how all of us would react. Different moderators have different viewpoints

The fact of the matter is that a lot of the specific situations and details are NOT hammered down, as you are all aware. There are two or three areas where we are all in agreement, but there is an ongoing debate about how far to extend this new rule. As soon as we hammer out the details, they will be posted here for everyone to follow.

In the meantime, send your hypothetical situations to warster.

Twiz, if I were on a power trip, I'd have to, like, actually use my power. So far the only thing I've done is talk...

I think iScode should learn to use some better language. I wouldn't agree to that sort of failure of the English language. In the meantime Scode for once spelled everything right and I don't think Suni or I fixed it for him ;) Nevermind there are mistakes.... I see them now, just not in spelling. Yeah don't agree to that Zorp LOL

-------------------------------------------
Alright my kittens ... on this note I see this thread is not going far or anywhere. There is a bunch of he said, he said and a rally going on. So I shall point the grand master grand moderator martian the fluffy bunny this way.

Twiz can you find me in irc... I have a question. And it is a burning one! :) thanks!

None of this matters, moderation shouldn't interfere with retal policies.

4 grabs = death
1 topfeed = death sometimes

The guy opened himself up to being killed he was killed, and it doesn't appear that there were coordination that can be proved. Both got their own spyops.

So what's the issue?

Yeah that pesky #105, I still want to know who that was.

If I am playing as untagged or in a small team, how am I supposed to know who I can hit without being killed? I guess I should just play an all-x country?

Or let's say that two tags grab me, and I retal 1:1, but those tags don't accept retals and start killing me. Is it my fault? Or what if I retal 2:1 and they both start killing me?

Not your job as a moderator. That's how the game is played, that's how it happens sometimes.
I am all for no mega-teams, but moderation deciding how a team may retal? Never.
Slippery slope, where does it stop?

I'd say they are pretty fair questions. If two teams decide to enforce a policy like that, and they both grab me and refuse to allow me to retal, you think it's fair?

Just like alliance, this is a group server. Just like alliance it's not terribly difficult for a single country to ruin another countries reset.

A team can retal how ever it pleases, but when they can't back it up through war; they die. A moderator should not worry about retal policies or single countries. They should be worried about ensuring that only a single team is enforcing that unreasonable retal policy.

No it's not fair. I feel ashamed of my own alliance sometimes about how untaggeds are treated, but the fact is alliance is a group server and all players are warned of that fact and that they should join an alliance. Last time I played team that same warning was displayed, I doubt it was removed.

On this server even if a meta-team is enforcing an unreasonable policy the rest of their teams get to watch while another team wars one of their teams over it. That to me should be the point, not trying to dictate retal policies.

That's not to say that an untagged has no recourse, I know from experience when some untagged countries get abused they find ways to retal. Just think that's 1 vs 60 and yet even a noob can cost someone their finish. I'd wager 1 vs 5 are better odds, and so long as their fury is contained to a single tag that should put them in a state of war meaning that other tags can't help. They will lose, but maybe their point would be made.