From what I understand, the mods posted a change in policy on tourney & primary a couple months ago?

I looked through all of the threads in primary talk since the message I got from galleri in April and there was nothing.

From: galleri
To: Chewi
Subject: RE: Found it?
Date: Aug 16th, 16:44
Message Body:
It was stated there, I know it was on TT, but most people play on both servers. I talked to martian about this and we decided the deletions stand.

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
On the tourney forum? http://forums.earthempires.com/...=santa-clause-isnt-real-1
Can't call that an announcement for primary.


I guess since I'm not most people that play both I miss important announcements.

I think it would be beneficial to have an actual "Server Rules" thread in each server forum.

A policy change that was not announced in any manner on either server, other than buried deeply in a Tournament server thread that has a thread topic that does not in any way hint that there is an announcement in it.

I do not play on, or read the Tournament forum/servers. Only looked today because of this.

Thank you for having the rules posted.

Rules should be consistently and fairly applied.
Rules should be announced through proper channels.
Rules should not be retroactively applied.
Rules should take effect at the start of the next set.
Rules should not be created by moderators.

All of these are common sense ideas and most of these require very little effort to implement, so it saddens me to see such failure across the board.

O.O

Wow once and for all I agree with slag. I'm going to go buy a loto ticket today.

I seriously recommend not buying a lotto ticket after agreeing with Slagpit.


Oh, sure, you'll buy the winning ticket and all, but you'll be struck by lightning, hit by a meteor, plastered by a bus, and mauled by a honey badger on your way to collect your winnings.

Oh, you'll also be kicked in the balls.

I was ok with everything else until you said I'd be kicked in the balls...

coordinated lg's is nothing like coordinated ab's/kill run

hell, when I play single person servers and my o ally grabs someone, that's the first thing I do is check that countries defense cause I know what my ally sent, so I can get in on that.

As for you Rockman, do you ever not fluff about anything? The game is always out to get you, right ?

LOL ^

Ugh.
A lot of folks in this thread who I consider(ed, maybe?) friends are acting like hockey parents at a peewee hockey game, yelling at the refs because you don't like the calls made on "your team". In the same sense as peewee hockey, the refs aren't professional, well paid refs -- they do it in their free time for a pittance (less for our mods), not as their primary job.

Remember that the mods we have are UNPAID VOLUNTEERS who spend their free time trying to help make the game a better place. Are things perfect? Hell no. But without the mods and active admins, the game would not exist and then no one would be able to play.

What's extra unfortunate for me is that I want to make severe changes to both the style of moderation and the gameplay mechanics for solo servers, but with this abrasive tone and aggravation toward those who keep the game going I don't really want to attach myself to that movement. I obviously support the staff over everything else because I see first hand how much time and effort goes into moderation and administration of the game. The game could not exist without the efforts of 15-20 dedicated members of this community who I'm happy to share the "Staff" title with.

Having just about finished up most of my crazy busy summer, I've actually started working on EE again secretly. It's all design stuff because that is where I feel the most impact can be made on moving the game forward. The new design for the forums (first spot for the redesign) is nearly complete and I'll probably post it up for public feedback soon once I go over a few more tweaks offered by staffers (fooglmog had some really good thoughts I want to implement, qz and I need to do another full review). If I come in now and start trying to force changes that align with arguments in threads like these, because it's also generally where I'd like to move toward, then that tacitly validates fluffty behaviour as a tactic to promote change and sets a precedent that I frankly don't want to see in a project I am helping maintain.

So to all of you who are taking this stance: Get back to being collaborative and stop being confrontational -- that's a key reason why I stopped wanting to be active in general; I didn't like spending my free time dealing with bullfluff when I could be doing things that are more fun (or lucrative!) with my time. Since I'm starting to get more free time again and issues like these are going to be a determining factor in how I spend it.

</$0.02>

Good post, I agree. And sorry if I was acting like a peewee hockey parent :p

In the states I'd be like a soccer mom!

I don't like the calls made on the "other team" as well.

I dont play or root for any team. All countries involved need to be deleted since they broke the rules. Whys it so complicated to grasp? Shouldnt be.

Here's my 2 cents since you posted yours.

You are well aware the game needs changes to move forward, but you are threatening not to make changes because of undesirable forum behavior. Is this blackmail? By delaying updates because you disapprove of bad forum behavior, you are also tacitly validating that you purposely not making changes because of a minority few people that are more outspoken, and the majority suffers as a consequence.

If you are going to provide a game service, do it well, or don't do it at all.

Pang, do not take this post as a personal attack, it is not intended to be one. I am replying to the content of the post by criticizing that the attitude you are having is equally undesirable behavior from the eyes of the players.

I quite agree. Pang, since both you and qzjul are not free at the moment, you two should just close down the game.

After all, it saves you both the time and trouble of having to deal with making changes etc for players who don't seem to appreciate it. At least, it saves you the trouble of being accused of "blackmailing" players by implicitly demand that they behave according to the rules and regulations.

I think Pang should just shut the game down. Would that solve all your problems, Xinhuan?

There is a difference between offering criticism, and showing appreciation. It seems like some of you do not understand the difference.

I appreciate the mods and admins that are offering the game service and their time for free.

But that cannot be used as an end-all excuse for everything that is undesirable or when things go wrong. Oh, we handled this badly. We have this and that issue. We aren't perfect. We are busy irl.

Only through criticism and feedback can the game service improve. If you look around my post history, I have consistently posted in various threads/forums and offered game balance changes, suggestions, comments, replying to questions raised by new players in the Strategy and Q&A forums.

To echlori and tellarion, are you both convinced that Pang withholding his upcoming changes is better for the game, otherwise it would be seen as tacit approval for abrasive forum behavior? Should forum behavior dictate what is best for the game? They should be 2 separate issues. First, to do what is best for the game, second to clamp down on undesirable forum behavior.



If I am wrong for calling out Pang on the forums, then it is equally wrong for him to respond as he did. If the players are clamouring for a change that just so happens to be the right thing to do, _then do the right thing_. If the right thing to do is to shut down the game, then yes do that too.

Give me a forum warning if you have to, I accept that I have crossed the lines in a blackmail accusation, but there are a couple of people that have told me that they agree with my post.

Yes and yes.

You mentioned yourself that the staff are working for free. They have no obligation to continue keeping the game up. They have no obligation to make new changes to the game.

You can argue about the representativeness of forum behaviour, but it is a representation of what the community wants. If they want to be abusive towards the staff, then they will have to learn to ask nicely, don't they?

P.S. The next time your company announces it is discontinuing support for a product, I'll be sure to find a couple of people who agree with me, and then accuse your company of blackmail, alright? It'll be fine, I'm willing to take a forum warning.

not to mention the death threats as well from a player now banned

If one is to choose to volunteer and commit to a project, then the volunteer should attempt to do a good job. Saying that "there is no obligation" is simply a way of saying "I will do it the way I like it", this is unacceptable.

To put it another way, if one was to volunteer for a project, then he has effectively put himself into an obligation to perform said project. If someone volunteered to moderate the forums, and then not do it, then he has not performed his obligation (that he has said he would do it). Obligation - "the act of binding oneself by a promise, contract." - dictionary.com

Just because help is offered freely does not imply there is no obligation. Pang and qzjul likewise has obligations to themselves and to each other to support the game, even if to nobody else. Neither can walk away without both agreeing to it.


I have given my personal opinion. Whether my opinions are taken into consideration for the future of EE is out of my hands.

Last I checked, qzjul and pang never mentioned how long they were obligated to provide this service for.

But you do raise a good point, if they pull the plug, they have gone against their obligation. Given how close Pang seems to be to doing so, I would advise you to find a good contract lawyer to take your case soon. I am an idiot when it comes to legal matters and I am not sure which law you could use to sue qzjul for turning off a machine/router in his own home.

xin, i'm disappointed that you've decided to try and twist my words. i expect better from you.

no one's holding anything hostage. i just don't like dealing with this kind of bullfluff in my free time, so i'm less likely to get energized and work on things when that's the case. sorry, but when this kind of bullfluff is the primary thing I need to spend my time dealing with it really makes me think about how I want to spend my time.

my key point, that you entirely ignored, was that all the folks pushing this agenda are only alienating their biggest ally on staff (me) which seems to run counter to your objectives. for me to agree and start pushing changes would set a precedent that I am frankly not willing to set -- that a few players who go out of their way to be douchebags can influence change. seems like it's in the same vein as "we do't negotiate with terrorists". couple that with my above comment ("i don't feel like dealing with people who act like jerks during the little free time I have") and you come to the conclusion that going out of your way to try and ruin a server to prove a point while going on a weeklong anti-staff smear campaign isn't the best way to get the results that you want.

the sense of entitlement many people feel is unwarranted at this point.

Why does everything around here have to turn into a poorly run PR campaign instead of an honest discussion?

Pang, I responded the way I did because of the way your post was written. It carried across negativity, it re-used the free time argument, and there was the subtle "hostage holding" elements.

I am not pushing for changes for the sake of wanting changes. I pushed for changes (I don't even know what you have planned) only because of the initial way it was conveyed that no change will be forthcoming as a consequence of a few "terrorists" as you have put it.

In fact, this thread is not even originally about changes to the game, the players just wanted to know why the deletions were inconsistent, and I wanted the inconsistencies to be corrected as did many others. Nobody demanded game changes. Changes aren't even mentioned until your post.

I am glad you have cleared that up, and that I have misinterpreted your message.

@Slagpit My posts are honest opinions. Perhaps I just shouldn't post them next time.

I was not referring to your posts.

=/

Antagonizing the mods & staff is less productive than having polite conversation.


I'll see if we can clarify policy shortly.

Also I'd like to point out that this game is a hobby for Pang & I still; we're not really obligated to do anything really... it's also free to play....

That said I enjoy the game, and would welcome *constructive* feedback, delivered in as neutral and clear a tone as possible. ;)

I'm glad I don't have to deal with this many babies on a daily basis...

There will always be a big outcry and often anger if modding is done in an inconsistant manner. Since Pang watches hockey and quotes it then perhaps the stanley cup playoff reffing is the perfect comparable situation here. You have seen the complaints I am sure.

I do think that the point Pang is trying to make is that there are more productive ways to "complain". This honestly probably isn't the best but hey we are on the internet!

I tried being "complaining productively", and it didn't work. Now I'm just resigned to the game being destroyed, and the moderators and admins working to speed up that process.

I'm willing to give constructive feedback if qzjul is willing to accept it. But I'm not convinced he's trying to be constructive, because his efforts appear to be destructive. And I'm willing to help him be destructive.

I'm tired of fighting them, so I'm joining them.

I don't think we're being destructive heh; you have a couple of strong opinions on one or two changes, but they're not majority opinions I think. And we're always open to adjustment.

Constructive feedback is useful and we are open to it; keep in mind though that this isn't our job so we don't necessarily respond instantly =/ Plus we have a 1 or 2 month reset cycle on all but express, so it necessarily leads to slow adjustment. And we don't like making *tooo* many changes at once, so we can judge what change had what effect...